Well, I'm afraid you are in danger of opening up a can of worms that, well, you probably will wish you never had. There are people that will tell you that if you have a good processor, the speakers aren't that important...and others that will tell you if you have good speakers, the processor isn't as important. There are speakers that are "warm" and some that are "bright", and probably a whole host of other vague terms to describe them. Bottom line, the best thing you can do is listen and find what you like...preferrably to something better than Rod Stewart! It's not sexy, but that's the best advice I got from a friend who subscribes to every home theater magazine that has ever been in print (aka Dork). Everything else is based on someone's opinion, and those are like...well, you know...and they usually stink. I'm no expert, and you do have a resident audiophile (Sean) who probably could steer you in the right direction, but in the end it's like wine...whatever you like, is good.

Well said, Waylon! And I know you're an audiophile yourself, so I consider this very good advice for us non-audiophiles. ;-) Thanks!

My advice on speakers? It's the same as on guitars -- go with the low. Go with the speakers that have the best low-end (bass) sound for the best low-end money.

Most really cheap systems sound tinny, and it's pretty obvious. Listen before you buy, or else you'll end up with the tinny shelf system I have downstairs my living room. Ugh!

Go cheap. Don't consider audio equipment an "investment" as tech and prices change too quickly.

Bose.

BoseBoseBoseBoseBoseBoseBose.

BoseBose.

Bose.

Thank you!

Jim, yeah, that's basically my mistake. I bought a cheap shelf system from Target instead of getting what I really wanted -- a nice Bose shelf-top. Dang. I'm regretting it now.

I consider Bose the best of the affordable brands.

If you are a wealthy audiophile, jump off the porch and play with the big dogs at Thor Audio.

Paul builds every unit by hand. But each system costs as much as bail for a rap band.

Hey Everyone, I'm Waylon's buddy and the audio/video "dork" he so lovingly referred to above… ;)

Unlike Waylon, I'm not the most eloquent writer, so hopefully I can articulate what I'm trying to say without coming off as a snob or upsetting anyone. Also, as Waylon said, this is opening up a can of worms as it is somewhat difficult to speak about such a vast subject while at the same time keeping the discussion at a high level. OK, here goes…

I've been a willing participant in the A/V world for about 10 years now, so hopefully I bring some credibility to this discussion. The world of audio is indeed a subjective one. What sounds "good" to one person may sound like absolute garbage to another. That being said, I feel it's important to qualify who is saying what based on their level of listening experience. A novice can listen to a pair of speakers at Wal-Mart and think that they sound "good" based on his or her experience with speakers over the course of their lifetime. However, another person, say someone who has heard many sets of "quality" speakers (speakers that typically aren't sold in chain retail outlets), would never subject themselves to that type of sound in a million years. I mean, sure they both output sound in similar ways, but the quality of the sound is vastly different. Take for example the difference between a Yugo and a Lexus. Sure they both get you from point A to B, but how they do so (style, comfort, reliability and performance) is vastly different between the two makes.

That being said, the best thing to do for any stereo/home theater purchase is to reasonably set your price limit, see what your options are and then do your research. Once you've narrowed down the choices, let your ears be the judge. (Side note: Now when I say reasonably set your price limit, that usually means roughly $300 for a decent receiver, roughly $200 for a decent DVD player, etc. Of course you can always go cheaper and while there are many bargains or "no-brainers" in the world of A/V, you usually do get what you pay for.) However, keep in mind a few important things…

Almost all of us have become accustomed to a particular way something sounds and have that audible "blueprint" in our minds. Therefore, anything that deviates from that personal "ideal" automatically sounds wrong to you. Take for example your car or home stereo. Most people I know have their both treble and their bass knobs set to the max or at least have the knobs set to something other than zero or neutral. Well, in essence (and Stacy, this goes back to your comment about the 5 sliders on your stereo's "graphic equalizer") you are boosting (or cutting) certain frequencies instead of having a flat response. In this case, you are actually coloring the sound as that is not an accurate representation of what was intended. Try this experiment in your car or at home…set all of your tone controls to zero or neutral and go about your normal listening habits for a week. I think you'll be quite surprised at how many more details you can hear in the music than before. Then, once that week is over, set the knobs back to what you previously had them set at. In most cases, I think you'll find that in going back to your previous settings, the treble sounds "etched" or harsh and the bass bloated or muddy. Everyone has their sound preference, but you need to be able to understand what a flat response sounds like first and then adjust your tastes accordingly. The second important thing to remember is that you will experience the most benefit in your sound quality by upgrading individual components before finally ending with a speaker upgrade. Waylon can personally attest to this. A while back, he had "X" number of dollars to spend on a piece of HT gear and came to me for recommendations. Without hesitation, I told him to upgrade his receiver. While his speakers were older, speaker design really hasn't changed all that much over the years. Yes, different materials have been used and various other minor advancements have been made but essentially they have remained rectangular boxes with any number of drivers in them pushing the sound. However, the technological advances in receivers have changed tremendously over the years given new chipsets, circuit boards, logic, features, evolving sound formats, etc. Long story short, Waylon purchased a lower end Denon receiver and was been rather pleased with his purchase. He was soon hearing details in his music that he hadn't heard before through his same old speakers.

Bottom line is that, like any other hobby in the world, you can get ridiculous with this one as well. For some people its expensive watches, others its cars. Everyone has their thing, their passion. For me, it's A/V gear. Why? Because it brings me that much closer to one of the greatest joys in my life…music. Some of my friends think I need to have my head examined when I tell them that I spent $1500 on a surround sound preamp/processor or $700 on a universal player that will play DVDs, but more importantly, dying (but darn good sounding) high resolution audio formats. Then, they hear their favorite CD being played through my system and their jaws drop. Yes, $1500 is a LOT to spend on a single piece of gear that is most likely mid-fi, but for the joy it's brought me in the 4+ years I've had it, it's worth every penny.

Anyway, I'm not sure if my little rant here helped, hurt, enlightened or confused. I consider myself a pretty good reference point for this kind of stuff, so if anyone ever has a question about it or needs clarification on something, lemme know…I'll do my best to help! Besides, the end result of it all and main goal is to bring us all closer to the music, right? 

P. S. Below is a great site to peruse for general knowledge, basic concepts, debunking of myths, reviews…all kinds of great stuff relating to A/V. Look on the left side margin for "Getting an AV Education"…

http://www.audioholics.com/

Wow, thanks for that RJ!

No problem, Larry...my pleasure! As I'm sure you can tell, I've got lots to say on the topic of A/V gear. Depending on which of my friends you ask, I've either helped open their ears to just how good music can sound or have cursed them in that they're now just as obsessed with the hobby as I am (and lighter in the wallet to boot). ;)

Wow, very helpful -- I'm going to try the car experiement on my drive home tonight. Thanks, RJ!

And Jim, oh yes, I covet the Bose. My parents have their living room all pimped out in Bose, so I've heard the Beauty and the Truth of it. But I didn't look much at "home theater" systems because I already have a DVD player I'm attached to, and then there's the aforementioned stereo loyalty.

But now I'm questioning that loyalty (dammit, RJ!). So maybe in a few years, when something or the other breaks or starts to suck, I'll think about re-doing my entire setup. And at that time I'll know a few folks I'll be asking for help! :)

Hey R.J, nice post. What's your opinion on the Bose Wave? I'm just wondering if $499 for something without a bass/treble knob is worth it. What would you do with $500 to spend?
PS: Why does a Bose Wave sound so good coming through my TV 3" speaker on the TV commercials? It also bothers me that they advertise in every Sunday supplement right next to the Orek dude selling the vacum cleaner that can lift bowling balls.

Bose has revolutionized personal sound. I use their PS1 sound system at my shows, and the difference in sound quality (measured in audience response and CD sales) is way ahead.

And the thing takes 5min to set up. So, all around, from home stereo to car stereo to amp system, the answer is Bose.

You really do get what you pay for.

Remember yesterday when I stated that I was going to try my best not to hurts anyone's feelings? Well, here goes… ;)

I'll just put it out there. I don't like Bose stereo/HT products…at all. There, I said it. Now, please allow me to explain. In A/V circles, Bose is considered the laughing boy. Reason being is that they sink more money than God into their marketing and commercials and earn it by charging exorbitant amounts of money for products that really aren't worth it. Not to mention that these ads tend to target the uninitiated. Please understand that when I say "uninitiated," I don't mean this maliciously. I don't imply or mean complete A/V morons. I simply mean those that may not have had enough experience with true quality sound to make an informed decision. I mean, if you really think about it, can two small cubes each with two 3" tweeters throw a HUGE soundstage where you really get lost inside the music? The answer is clearly, no. While there's plenty of Bose-isms out there (some that are downright mean, but funny I must say), the one that leaps to mind is "Bose…all highs, no mids, no lows" and it is indeed apropos. If you want a very treble-y sound that emphasizes a very small frequency range in the audio spectrum, then by all means go for it. However, understand that you'll be missing out on a LOT of information in the signal, most of which is contained in the midrange, the true "meat" of music. If you ask me (and a lot of other A/V people out there…I'll avoid using "audiophile" because what truly is an audiophile? Perhaps a discussion for another day…), I'd rather have a speaker that shines in the midrange and is so-so in the treble and bass departments versus a speaker that produces great treble and bass, but is anemic in the mids. I think a big mistake that people make is that they perceive crisp treble to be the be-all, end-all sign of good speaker. Perhaps this is because this is where a lot of the musical cues come from that people associate with good sound…the "ticking" of a high-hat, the shimmer of a cymbal or the crisp attack of a strummed acoustic guitar.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, don't be taken by marketing and ads. Keep an open mind, do some research and give some companies that you may never have heard of (but have good reputations) a chance. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I know of PLENTY of speaker manufacturers that built their solid reputations by building quality speakers and through word of mouth. They started as internet-only companies with 30-day, in-home trials and complete money back guarantees. Is it somewhat of a pain to order speakers over the internet, have them shipped to your home, try them for 30 days and ship them back if you don't like them? Yes indeed. However, it says a lot about what a company thinks about their product. In fact, the speakers I still have to this day in my home theater room were ordered from an online company and Waylon can attest, they sound quite good. At the time, this company was brand new and I decided to take a chance on them as I could not listen to them locally. At the time, I got two floorstanding fronts, a center channel and two bookshelf speakers delivered for $900. That's unbeatable. I still have all of them (minus the center…I upgraded to a larger one) to this day.

Hopefully, I didn't upset anyone on this very welcome site. This was all merely my opinion and it may or may not be worth anything in the grand scheme of things!

Happy listening!

P. S. Hal, are you asking about what brand of speaker I would buy for $500 or receiver?

I have a friend who is thinking about buying a Bose. His girlfriend has one and he says it sounds great. I keep telling him that it sounds great because he is sitting on her couch. Put that same Bose in his house, without his girlfriend, and I'm betting he won't like how it sounds nearly as much.

Until earlier this year I had a hand-me-down receiver that in the middle of a movie would fizzle and pop and the display would go dark until you gave it a good Fonzie slap. After some looking around I ordered this Panasonic SA-XR57S. It's 7.1 surround with DTS decoding and digital amplifiers blah blah etc. After hooking it up I put on the Gillian Welch CD Revival and it was like a new album. I could hear the wood grain in Greg Leisz's Weissenborn guitar. I can't afford to be an audiophile but little epiphany sparks like that are nice.

Well, RJ, you did manage to tick me off just a tad. I've used Bose products for years, don't consider myself an AV snob but a workman who needs to get the most bang for my audio buck. Especially when it comes to personal sound systems.

I have many good friends in the AV biz - Paul Marks from Thor Audio and I are quite close, and I admire his work. But when you try to tell me that anyone out there has a system that, outta the box, delivers the sound of a Bose dollar for dollar, I have to respectfully disagree!

It isn't marketing when an audience member comes up to me and says "Damn, every time I sit back there in this club I can't hear the stage. But this time it was clear as a bell." Or when people at an outdoor venue compliment my sound - having first heard it clearly 500 yards away - without me having to blow out the eardrums of the first three rows.

All this in a sound system that weighs 40lbs, packs into the back seat of a crew cab pickup, and requires no sound man to operate.

Nope, RJ, you won't convince me otherwise. Been there, seen that, have the tee shirt.

Hal -- that story sounds strangely familiar to me. Hmmm...

OK, Hal and Larry, enough is enough!

Hal, tell yer friend to stop hanging around at my girlfriend's place.

Larry, I want that Johnny Cash poster you snaked off her!!

I will add, in defernce to RJ, that the PS1 has one heck of a sub-bass accessory that clears up most of those "high-end only" concerns. It weighs as much as the rest of the system put together, and stays in my hall closet most of the time.

Since I'm not putting anything through it lower than a drop-D in some modal tunings, deep bass is not something that concerns me a lot.

I'm guessing Jim is giving his Bose more credit than it deserves.
R.J., my question was if the Bose Wave isn't the best value for $499, what is.
I'm not shopping yet but my NAD amp is pushing twenty and developing some random crackles when the knobs are turned. I feel like I'll be shopping soon. I'll take recommendations for an amp under $500 and the same $ for a set of (that would be two) speakers. If god(s) had wanted us to listen to surround sound he/she would have given us seven ears!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Hal, you're just a heartwarming pal of a guy.

One thing to note...Jim is talking about a system that he uses for live performances and RJ is talking about a home stereo system. I also use that tower system that Jim is talking about, we have two towers each with two subs, and it was sent from God Himself on high...no lugging around heavy amps and monitors, no sound board, processors, amps, etc and it packs a hell of a punch. We have to make sure we are comparing apples to apples here...

Hal, what are you thinking of using the Bose wave for? Is it going to be like your primary system, or are you just going to put it in the kitchen or something? Do you have a receiver and/or speakers at all, or are you starting from scratch?

Bose

Jim,

I think you misinterpreted my post. As Waylon noted, I was speaking about stereo/home theater systems and not a live set up as I have no experience with the Bose . I'm sorry for ticking you off, but my post was merely my opinion about Bose and was based on what I believe. I too am a workman who also needs to get the best bang for my buck, hence the reason why I choose to invest in gear that has an excellent price to performance ratio (Rotel, used Marantz gear, internet only companies, etc.). Not that I feel the need to defend what I spend on my gear, but we don't have children, don't have adult toys (like boats, a vacation home, etc.) or car payments, so I choose to spend my hard earned income on something that brings me the most joy in my life which is music.

I'm not very familiar with Thor Audio, but one look at their website and it's easy to see that they manufacture some nice products. Their products are gorgeous and appear to have the specs to back them up. I'd love to hear some one day if I'm ever back up north again.

That's fine if you disagree with me, you have every right to...that's what leads to a lively discussion!

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "outta the box"…do you mean a home theater in a box (HTIB) or do you mean a speaker system that is bought as a package or ensemble? To clarify what I had written previously, I handpicked my (then) five speaker system from the company's various products to assemble a complete system at an attractive price and feel that I have done so.

Basically, I wasn't trying to convince you of anything…you seem to have your mind already made up. I was merely trying to provide the people here with some insight into an area that I feel that I have considerable experience with. If they listen to "X" brand speakers and Bose side by side and decide that they like the Bose system better, great…no skin off my back. I was just saying to (a) ignore the marketing, (b) know what to listen for and (c) keep an open mind. That's all…no more, no less.

Thanks RJ. I've had turkey, I'm all better now.

Soddisfare emozionante. Siete buoni a fotoricettore-progettate!

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